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 cover from the aegis defense line?

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KOMOSUNDER
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PostSubject: cover from the aegis defense line?   Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:25 pm

so we came across a rules issue with the aegis defense lines. do they give a 3+ or a 4+ cover save.
here is the argument for the 4+:

under the entry of the Aegis sdefense line it states its terrain type as a barricade. barricades are very clear that they they give a 4+ cover.

and the argument for the 3+:

under the shooting chapter where the book defines cover saves it states that Fortifications provide a 3+ cover.

i think we have finalized a ruling, but what do you guys think, 4+ or 3+?
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:19 am

Going off what the rulebook says the terrain type is Battlefield Debris (Defense Lines) now under the page for battlefield debris it says
"Defense lines follow all the same rules for barricades and walls
except that a unit that decides to Go to Ground behind a defence
line gains+ 2t o its cover save, rather than +l"

so that means it would be a 4+ cover save.
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:02 am

Here is the counter argument. It is clearly lined out under shooting that fortifications reward a 3+. The type may not be factor as a bastion is type "med building" but is still a fortification. For all intent and porposes.
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:31 pm

I looked around the rulebook and I would say as a fortification it would be 3+ since none of the others are listed differently but only as a fortification. Going by what I posted earlier, that would probably be if you just had something like a wall on the battlefield. I would say the fact that it is a fortification would take precedence over the terrain type.

Therefore it would be a 3+ Save
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:07 pm

I can see where there is confusion based on the information presented in the book in the different areas. I have been playing this as a 4+, but would love the 3+ if that is what our tournament rulings are looking like it would be.

Also a quick question, if models are behind the wall and are enclosed, would you consider them in "area terrain" or is it just cover from an obstruction of the line of site? Basically if you have someone who is in clear site, but within what could be considered it "area of cover" would it give you a cover save?
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Reading the book now that I have it in front of me, the description of the Aegis Defense Line is a: Battlefield Debris (Defense Line)

Because this is the explanation the book is pretty clear that it acts like a wall or barricade (+4 save). I do not think it is considered a "fortification" as it relates to the ruling in the shooting section. Because the rulebook clearly defines what kind of structure it is "Battlefield Debris (Defense Line)" I would think that is more important than it being called a "fortification" which is not in the description of the terrain.

Edit: Also looking at the Tau/Daemon vs Tau/Eldar, it looks like the line's split up. The rules say they have to all be in contact with another one. (pg 114 under composition) I don't know if that is doable unless you have double force org charts


Last edited by griff0rd on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:26 pm

sense we are moving onto a new question ill post the ruling on the defense line.

the defense line will provide a 4+ cover save. both the 3+ and 4+ has a viable argument, unless we use the entry under fortifications as a codex entry. the fortifications section of the rulebook is set apart from the main rule set and contain entries similar to a standard codex.

rulebook<codex<FAQ

this being the case the entry will always trump the rulebook.

now for area terrain. for something to be classified as such it must have a defined outline. generally this means a bace the terrain is sitting on. if your modal has nothing between them and the table they cannot claim area terrain. just serounding a modal with non area terrain as a boarder just doesn't cut it. obviously this is an easy argument to resolve by discussing terrain before the game (of witch i never remember to do).
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:34 pm

I can see the argument for a 3+, but I tend to think when it clearly states what the piece is, like you mentioned in your response a codex like section, that should trump a general rule. Much like a special rule will trump the basic rules that you find in other situations.

The area terrain makes sense explanation makes sense as well.
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:16 pm

just saw your edit. the way the book has presented it makes this easy to overlook. the rule in the book states "each section of aegis defense line must be placed in base contact with at least one other section." in theory you could run 4 separate bunkers. they only need to be in bace with one other peace. as long as you have two of them together it works. here is the obvious counter argument, "you need to place them one at a time." if this was the case you could never place the modal.
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PostSubject: Cover Save   Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:20 pm

The Rules for walls state that within x distance from the wall a cover save is valid. If the Aegis is spread out into a line, this seems to apply. If it forms an enclosure it should give the same cover save to everything inside the enclosure, much like area terrain.
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PostSubject: Re: cover from the aegis defense line?   Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:18 pm

Brother Bear wrote:
The Rules for walls state that within x distance from the wall a cover save is valid. If the Aegis is spread out into a line, this seems to apply. If it forms an enclosure it should give the same cover save to everything inside the enclosure, much like area terrain.

That would be correct, unless the model/unit shooting is on the inside (or a barrage template lands inside) of the enclosed defense line with the target being shot or the firer was elevated and had clear line of sight to its target and had the option to focus fire. I'm not sure where you seen the 2" rule however. I do see that "For charge purposes, models that are both in base contact and within 2" of each other are treated as being in base contact. Despite the model not actually being in base contact." (pg 104)

As far as the 3+ cover debate above:
Seeing as how the Aegis Defense Line is Terrain Type: Battlefield Debris (Defense Line)~(pg 104) and the Skyshield Landing Pad is Terrain Type: Unique (pg 107), the Fortress and Bastion are Buildings. The Buildings section of the rule book has a "Fortification" Entry. In that entry, the Bastion and the Fortress of Redemption are discussed exclusively. So those are the only two purchasable fortifications granting a 3+ (unmodified) cover save. This cover confers to units on top, inside and to units obscured by the Fortification.

As far as the rest of the building are concerned, make sure you discuss with your opponents how you see the battlefield is the same way they do BEFORE the game starts. The mid game "That's just a hill!" VS "But still area terrain..." will just aggravate you later.
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